ericat - C'est vs. Il est - An interactive lesson for the FrenchPod users

anugrah says
October 17, 2008

I guess C'est is more like it's or it is such as when you seen someone. Il est is he is rather than It is.

For newbies, Il is he and ce is it (for masculine nouns only, if I'm correct.)

Donc (so, therefore), Il est professeur means He is a professeur. (In French, a profession doesn't use an article.)

C'est un professeru means It's a professor. (Don't forget Liaison.)

I hope I explained it correctly with my 1 year of French in Highschool and a few months on FrenchPod.

I'll let someone else answer the question about the pattern.

ericat says
October 21, 2008

Merci Anna8 & Anugrah for taking part in the interactive lesson!

First, Anugrah: you're right! In general, il est = he is while c'est = it is. Il est can also translate sometimes as it is, though. That's what makes it a tricky pair! The ce in c'est stand for this or that, so while it's figurative meaning is "it is", it's literal meaning is "this is" or "that is".

That's why it's weird for us English speakers to get used to that in French, when someone asks a question like "what does he do," that you could answer "that's a lawyer," like in the example above.

Anna8 - tu as raison! Bravo - 2 in a row!

2nd pattern = C'est comes before proper nouns.

anugrah says
October 22, 2008

Now, you're are opening up my mind to the fact that both mean "it is". But you are also confusing me at  the same time. I can't wait for the answer!

mtfranklin says
October 24, 2008

Ok here is my attempt :)

Like sgalanis said, I think:

- C'est is used for days of the week and dates.

- Il est is used for times of day.

Also, I think the sentences above that refer to days of the week (eg. C'est mardi) don't have articles because they're referring to a particular day, like in the sentence Je viendrai vous voir lundi (I will come to see you Monday).

However, when you want to refer to something that happens habitually (e.g. every Monday/on Mondays) you use the definite article with the day of the week. For example, J'ai ma classe de francais le lundi (I have my French class on Mondays/every Monday)

Just one question about the C'est + proper noun form: does that mean you can never use Il est/ Elle est with proper nouns? So, if someone asks Who is that actress? you can't say Elle est Isabelle Huppert? Is that correct?

steph

ericat says
October 26, 2008

Other points about your great observations:

Sglanis, you are correct:

1. There is no article when discussing the hour of the day (il est cinq heures) or what day of the week it is (c'est dimanche)
2. But you need an article (here le) when discussing the date - on est le cinq avril

Mtfranklin, you are also correct. When it comes to days of the week (as well as times of the day, like the afternoon or evening), when you are referring to something that you do habitually at those times, you use the article:

Je ne travaille pas le samedi = I don't work on Saturdays

Le matin, je prends le bus = I take the bus in the mornings

Le mercredi soir, je regarde "Lost" = On Wednesday nights, I watch Lost.

That is correct, I have confirmed with the French speakers that you cannot answer the question "who is that actress?" with Elle est..... you must use, c'est.

sgalanis says
October 28, 2008

A common noun in its traditional definition is "a person, a place or a thing".

1.So french teacher (a person) is a noun.

2. cookie (a thing) is a noun.  A yummy noun at that. :)

3. city (a place), is also a noun.  

A proper noun is a specific name of a common noun. So, a proper noun of the common nouns above examples would be:

1. Erika, Amaury

2. Oreo

3. Paris

The other thing that is unique to the proper noun, that it doesn't share with the common noun is it will always be capitalized, no matter where it is in the sentence.

So, for example you could say:

"I would like to ask my french teacher for help" or

"I would like to ask Erika for help"

"I would like to have a cookie for a snack" or

"I want an Oreo for a snack".

Hope that helps!

sergefrench says
November 6, 2008

Hi! If I may add my word, I'd say the following:

You should use "c'est" whenever you want to focus the attention on the person themselves:
- Regarde! C'est un acteur! C'est Brad Pitt! (Look! This is an actor! It's Brad Pitt!)
So, if you're a paparazzi or a groupie, then you must use "c'est".

But, if you're a bio writer or a judge or a policeman - for example - then you'll have to use "il est" in order to focus the attention on the profession rather than on the person:
- Que fait Carla Bruni dans la vie? (What's Carla Bruni's job?)
- Elle est chanteuse. Mais avant elle était mannequin. (She's a singer. But she used to be a model.)

The same thing holds for dates:

- Aujourd'hui, c'est le premier janvier ! On ne va pas à l'école ! (Today's the first of January! We're not going to school!)
In this case, you mean that today's a very special day to you. But in that one:
- On est quel jour (or more colloquial: "on est le combien") aujourd'hui ? On est le six ou le sept novembre ? (What's the day today? Is it the sixth or the seventh of November?)
There you mean that it's just the number that matters to you - today's just like any other day.

I hope that helps...

ericat says
November 8, 2008

Thank you for adding to the discussion, sergefrench! Your French native-speaker perspective is valuable for all of us! It's fun to start looking at your language from the perspective of a foreigner, isn't it? When I first started teaching English to foreigners, it was so interesting to learn what things confused them because to me they seemed so obvious. Until I started examining it through their eyes and saw, yeah, I guess that could be confusing.

The why in this case is that, as you said, c'est and il est don't actually mean the same thing in French. But in the English translation, they often do (usually "it's") or they don't mean the same thing in English as in French:

- When talking about time, for example, we universally say in English "it's." But in French, it could be either c'est or il est so we have to learn what is the difference and when to use which one. The simplest answer is use c'est when talking about time, unless it the hour of the day, use il est (which rhymes - the hour of the day, use il est!)

- When talking about proper nouns, the one the French use is c'est. So in French, you literally say, "that is Brad Pitt" when we would say "it's Brad Pitt".

- When it comes to professions, nationalities and religions, we would only answer in English with the pronoun - "she is" or "he is," but you in French you  can answer in two ways. Example:

What nationality is George?

Il est canadien = He is Canadian. No problem, there.  But, wait, what if I want to answer "He's a Canadian?", with a noun instead of an adjective? Then I would say c'est un canadien. In French, you have to change the pronoun here, in English you don't.

I sometimes accidentally say the wrong one if I'm speaking casually and not paying attention, I think because of the way that I learned it. I was given a big list of formulas for each one all at the same time. That's why I tried out this interactive lesson and, rather than just give that big list of formulas, take them one by one and instead give a list of examples of the rule in action. By studying the examples one by one and deducing the formula themselves through observation and discussion, I thought it might help the users more easily retain and understand the difference then if they were just given a list of formulas of every possibility to memorize all at the same time.

anugrah says
November 9, 2008

SO much information, give me time to digest it. I also need to know the main difference between C'est and Il est, the answer might be above though, I may just need to look it over.

BTW sergefrench, I would've never figured out that you were French. Your English is really good.

anugrah says
November 10, 2008

Thanks sergefrench, but there's too many foreigners who try to be modest but cancel it out with their awesome English. I hope you aren't leaving the site because you're valuable to the site. Thanks for your help!

ericat says
November 14, 2008

Merci, kabul & bonne chance with your French studies!

amaurylibeer says
November 19, 2008

We won't anugrah. Many thanks for your comment and support.

sergefrench says
November 22, 2008

Pinkjeans, C'est is a form of particular insistence, whereas il est is just a plain statement.

For instance, you might say: "Il est important de bien écouter les dialogues de Frenchpod." (It's important to listen carefully to Frenchpod's dialogs.)

Now, if your kids are making too much noise during your listening, you might shout at them: "Laissez-moi écouter, s'il vous plaît ! C'est important pour moi !" (Please do let me listen! It's important for me!)

Anugrah, how are you? I'll just add one more example, so that this thread doesn't die too soon... Suppose you're applying for a new job, you might say: "Je suis Anugrah, j'ai étudié ceci et cela...")

Now, if you're meeting someone at a party, you'll probably ask: "Tu t'appelles comment ? Moi, c'est Anugrah !" I guess you can see the difference...

sergefrench says
November 26, 2008

Actually, there's no proper translation for the magic French word ce in English. It can either mean that/this/it/she/he/they, and the right translation for "He's a Canadian" is indeed "C'est un Canadien". In English, you have to specialize the subject in terms of [living being/inanimate thing]. But in French you don't: you may use ce in both cases.

In fact, ce just means "what I have in mind", and this makes it very useful when you're surprised and don't have much time to think. I like the rhyme you quoted, Erica: "The hour of the day, use il est!" - of course it works in 99.99% of the cases. But I wouldn't be surprised at seeing somebody glance at their watch and shout: "Mais c'est cinq heures ! Je croyais qu'il n'était que quatre heures !" (But it's five o'clock! I thought it was only four!)... even though this one is unlikely to be printed in upcoming French grammar books... :-)

sergefrench says
December 3, 2008

Hi Anugrah!

I mean, it's not really grammatically recommended to say "c'est cinq heures" instead of "il est cinq heures". But you will hear it in France sometimes, because "c'est" is such a convenient phrase that it's used in many different situations. In fact, when someone says "c'est cinq heures" they actually mean: "c'est cinq heures que ma montre indique" (it's five o'clock that my watch marks), and this doesn't break any rule.

Yes, it's a rather tricky pair, as Erica mentioned at the beginning of this thread. However, one has to keep in mind that "il est un" is seldom used in French. "il est un" more often means "there is a" than "he is a". For example, the French for "once upon a time" is "il était une fois". So we have:
He is Canadian -> Il est canadien
He is a Canadien -> C'est un Canadien

But don't worry, there's no doubt that with a little practice all this will soon sound completely straightforward to everyone of you... :-)

bababardwan says
August 24, 2011

great discussion, and I love the idea of an interactive lesson. Were there any more of these?